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Florida Arcade and Pinball Collectors => Technical Questions and Help => Topic started by: Tdchewy on July 28, 2010, 10:39:31 PM

Title: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 28, 2010, 10:39:31 PM
So ever since I bought my Whitewater machine, it hasnt worked properly, was resetting and blowing fuses. I thought initially the problem was with the power driver board as I had done some repairs (BR1 and 2 and some driver and predriver transistors) and wasn't sure if that was the culprit, so I bought a new rottendog driver board, but still have the same issue. I have replaced the coil with a new one a few weeks back before the new board, but that made no difference. My troubleshooting skills are terrible.. help me out please, I want to play this game badly.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: HammysHangout ( Hammy ) on July 28, 2010, 10:46:07 PM
did you check the wiring for the coil to make sure there is no shorts, or bare edges from the coil to the driver board?

also, if the diode is on the coil backwards, it can cause the fuse to blow.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: tktlwyr on July 29, 2010, 07:23:08 AM
You're blowing F903 on the Fliptronics II board.  Please clarify if you bought a new power driver board or a new Fliptronics board from Rottendog?  Not sure why you'd buy a power driver board if the issue is with the Fliptronics?  

F903 would be the lower left flipper.  Is that the coil you replaced?

Also, does it blow when the game is turned on or after hitting the flipper button?
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: ibis on July 29, 2010, 08:32:39 AM
It's destroyed.  Just sell me your WH20 and all your problems will go away!
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: tktlwyr on July 29, 2010, 09:21:20 AM
It's destroyed.  Just sell me your WH20 and all your problems will go away!

Said the man with a flipper problem a few weeks back. LOL
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: ibis on July 29, 2010, 10:04:50 AM
I am flipper illiterate!
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 10:08:54 AM
You're blowing F903 on the Fliptronics II board.  Please clarify if you bought a new power driver board or a new Fliptronics board from Rottendog?  Not sure why you'd buy a power driver board if the issue is with the Fliptronics?  

F903 would be the lower left flipper.  Is that the coil you replaced?

Also, does it blow when the game is turned on or after hitting the flipper button?

Correct, F903 is on the Fliptronics board

Replaced power driver board with new rottendog board
Not sure why you'd buy a power driver board if the issue is with the Fliptronics?  - Because I had made repairs to the original power driver board and wasn't sure if I did them right.

The lower left flipper coil is the one I replaced - fl-11629

Fuse blows when flipper button is pressed during gameplay.

All of this is in the original post BTW.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: tktlwyr on July 29, 2010, 12:16:06 PM
I usually skip the title and go right to the meat of the post.  Sorry.

Make sure the coil is wired correctly...Lug 1 is the outside lug on the coil with silver banded part of the diode pointed to the outside side of the coil and should be connected to a Grey/Yellow wire.  Lug 2 is the middle lug and should be connected to a Blue/Grey wire.  Lug 3 is the other outside lug with the silver banded part of the the diode pointed toward the center lug and should have an Orange/Blue wire attached to it.  This is what the schematic calls for, but there's always a chance the wire colors on the schematic are wrong.  If you have different colors, report back before proceeding below.

If those are not correct the fuse will blow.  You will need to replace both 1N4004 diodes on the flipper coil (available at Radio Shack).  At this point you may have fried the driving transistor at Q3 (TIP36C).  If it's fried, when you start a game the coil will energize without pressing the button.  At that point replace Q3 and I'd replace Q10 (TIP102), Q18 (2N4403) and D6 (1N4004) for good measure.

That is your mission for now.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: HammysHangout ( Hammy ) on July 29, 2010, 12:29:12 PM
chewy, i have majority of those parts if you need them.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 12:50:17 PM
Thanks guys. Great advice. I will check all of these when I get home. Tktlwyr, sorry about the rudeness earlier, i was in a foul mood. I do appreciate your help.

Bill, I also have those parts on hand as well, but thanks for offering. I just never am quite sure what I am supposed to be looking for in these situations. My inclination at this point is that the diodes on the coil have failed as you guys have mentioned.
Thanks again
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: ibis on July 29, 2010, 01:09:30 PM
Just sell me the WH20 and you foul mood will brighten!
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 03:34:12 PM
Just sell me the WH20 and you foul mood will brighten!

Whats your offer Leon?
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: ibis on July 29, 2010, 03:38:46 PM
Since it doesn't work.... :D  I am kidding!  I am saving up for a TOTAN!  AND NOTHING WILL STOP ME!!!! MMMuuuuhahahahahahahah!!
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 04:37:26 PM
I usually skip the title and go right to the meat of the post.  Sorry.

Make sure the coil is wired correctly...Lug 1 is the outside lug on the coil with silver banded part of the diode pointed to the outside side of the coil and should be connected to a Grey/Yellow wire.  Lug 2 is the middle lug and should be connected to a Blue/Grey wire.  Lug 3 is the other outside lug with the silver banded part of the the diode pointed toward the center lug and should have an Orange/Blue wire attached to it.  This is what the schematic calls for, but there's always a chance the wire colors on the schematic are wrong.  If you have different colors, report back before proceeding below.

If those are not correct the fuse will blow.  You will need to replace both 1N4004 diodes on the flipper coil (available at Radio Shack).  At this point you may have fried the driving transistor at Q3 (TIP36C).  If it's fried, when you start a game the coil will energize without pressing the button.  At that point replace Q3 and I'd replace Q10 (TIP102), Q18 (2N4403) and D6 (1N4004) for good measure.

That is your mission for now.

OK, so it is wired properly according to the schematic and per your suggestion, im off to go get some 1n4004s to replace diodes on the coil.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: tktlwyr on July 29, 2010, 04:47:03 PM
Does the flipper energize upon starting a game?
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Pinball Shark on July 29, 2010, 04:51:43 PM
Have you read through the Marvin guide for these problems?

http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index.htm (http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index.htm)

Just a few weeks ago my White Water was resetting when the flippers were used, using that guide, I tracked it down to some faulty connectors. I replaced about 5 of them connecting to various boards and the problem is gone. I also had a pop bumper and flasher that weren't working and I just had to replace the large TIP resistors on the driver board.

I've never had any fuses blow on mine, but that guide has yet to let me down.  :)
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Pinball Shark on July 29, 2010, 04:54:37 PM
Here's the sections on flippers.

http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index2.htm#flip0 (http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index2.htm#flip0)
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 05:27:39 PM
No it does not energize upon game start. It actually appears to be working properly now after replacing the 1n4004s on the coil. Seems strange that when i replaced the coil that it didnt work, i suppose the new coil mnay have had faulty diodes on it. Thanks guys! I am psyched to have this working again. I knew it had to be something simple.


Edit: after realizing that I had swapped the fliptronics board last night from my fish tales, I put the original fliptronics board back into white water and now, upon game start, the left flipper is energized and sticks in the up position when the flipper button is pressed once, but even before the button is pressed, I can feel by touching the flipper that it is energized before the button is pressed.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Mamushka on July 29, 2010, 06:39:18 PM
No it does not energize upon game start. It actually appears to be working properly now after replacing the 1n4004s on the coil. Seems strange that when i replaced the coil that it didnt work, i suppose the new coil mnay have had faulty diodes on it. Thanks guys! I am psyched to have this working again. I knew it had to be something simple.


Edit: after realizing that I had swapped the fliptronics board last night from my fish tales, I put the original fliptronics board back into white water and now, upon game start, the left flipper is energized and sticks in the up position when the flipper button is pressed once, but even before the button is pressed, I can feel by touching the flipper that it is energized before the button is pressed.

I would say that the "hold" transistor is bad. Have you tested the transistors according to the guide?
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 06:54:21 PM
No I have not tested them, but it looks like some of them have been replaced before. I am going to try replacing the transistors and diodes mentioned earlier by tktlwyr and post back with results.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 07:21:00 PM
OK, So I replaced q3, q10, q18, and d6 as suggested, but it is still energized upon game start, but the fuse doesn't blow any more.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: tktlwyr on July 29, 2010, 07:36:29 PM
Go into switch test and see if the flipper switch is activating.  At this point, I'd lift the playfield and check the left flipper opto board.  The interrupter may be warped and not returning to the board all the way, i.e. not blocking the receiver opto from the transmitter opto.  Ibis had a similar problem a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Mamushka on July 29, 2010, 07:51:41 PM
Go into switch test and see if the flipper switch is activating.  At this point, I'd lift the playfield and check the left flipper opto board.  The interrupter may be warped and not returning to the board all the way, i.e. not blocking the receiver opto from the transmitter opto.  Ibis had a similar problem a few weeks ago.

He said that when he swapped boards the problem went away so I doubt it's the flipper opto board. I would pull the fliptronics board, check all the transistors and really look the board over. Could be a solder bridge from the previous work.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 08:06:31 PM
Go into switch test and see if the flipper switch is activating.  At this point, I'd lift the playfield and check the left flipper opto board.  The interrupter may be warped and not returning to the board all the way, i.e. not blocking the receiver opto from the transmitter opto.  Ibis had a similar problem a few weeks ago.

Switch test shows no activity until flipper button is pressed, even though I can feel the coil heating up and vibrating a bit. When the button is pressed, the eos switch stays on until I push the flipper down by hand.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 08:08:41 PM
Go into switch test and see if the flipper switch is activating.  At this point, I'd lift the playfield and check the left flipper opto board.  The interrupter may be warped and not returning to the board all the way, i.e. not blocking the receiver opto from the transmitter opto.  Ibis had a similar problem a few weeks ago.

He said that when he swapped boards the problem went away so I doubt it's the flipper opto board. I would pull the fliptronics board, check all the transistors and really look the board over. Could be a solder bridge from the previous work.

Yeah, I'd tend to agree with you there that the issue seems to be isolated to the fliptronics board. I even just tried swapping the opto board with another known good one and it made no difference. I guess I'm just going to have to go over the fliptronics board with a fine tooth comb. thanks for all the suggestions guys
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: tktlwyr on July 29, 2010, 08:58:49 PM
Chewy,

can you test Q9 (TIP102) for me?

Put your DMM in diode mode.  Put the black lead of the DMM on the metal tab on top of the transistor. Put the red lead of the DMM on each of the two outside legs of the transistor one at a time. A reading of .4 to .6 volts should be seen. Put the red lead on the center transistor leg (collector), and a zero reading should be seen. Any other value, and the transistor is bad and will need to be replaced.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 09:19:07 PM
Chewy,

can you test Q9 (TIP102) for me?

Put your DMM in diode mode.  Put the black lead of the DMM on the metal tab on top of the transistor. Put the red lead of the DMM on each of the two outside legs of the transistor one at a time. A reading of .4 to .6 volts should be seen. Put the red lead on the center transistor leg (collector), and a zero reading should be seen. Any other value, and the transistor is bad and will need to be replaced.

You're good man. One outside leg read .5 something and the other read 0 the center leg read 0. I'll replace that q9 in a bit and let you know how it works out. thanks!
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: tktlwyr on July 29, 2010, 09:34:16 PM
As long as you're in there, you may want to follow our previous protocol and replace D5 (1N4004) and Q17 (2N4403), too.  They may have been stressed or part of the failure.
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: Tdchewy on July 29, 2010, 10:04:08 PM
As long as you're in there, you may want to follow our previous protocol and replace D5 (1N4004) and Q17 (2N4403), too.  They may have been stressed or part of the failure.

Dude! I owe you a beer. I replaced q9 and the flipper works great now. I will now replace D5 and q17 as well.
thanks again
Tim
Title: Re: Whitewater Blows F903 when left flipper is pressed.
Post by: tktlwyr on July 29, 2010, 10:11:33 PM
Happy to help and glad it's fixed!

Working my way towards a six-pack!